I think it is wishful thinking. I doubt seriously this law will ever get past EU level rules.

By SandraV | April 15, 2011 7:28 AM

so if i live here for 10 years and pay tax? i now allowed anything? the dutch become more celular everyday.

this isnt the utrecht marathon

By damien taylor | April 15, 2011 7:56 AM

So, if I don't learn Dutch and I am European and they refuse to pay me my jobless contribution, I will be able to get back all my money that I've paid while I was working towards my unemployment benefits? Then fine!

This will simply NEVER pass EU approval! These people are crazy to think they can deport me while they owe me jobless benefits that I've paid while I was legaly working here!

By Alex | April 15, 2011 8:21 AM

"Welfare (bijstand), the basic social security payment for people will no other means of support, will only be paid to people who speak Dutch." - So, they have no problem getting my taxes while I work, but now I have to speak Dutch, should I ever need to get social security support!?! That's unacceptable! If I pay into the social security system, there should be no additional requirements to benefit from it.

By AnotherExpat | April 15, 2011 8:31 AM

I totally agree with ''AnotherExpat''. Those measures will just increased not registered employment as to be in NL you dont need a residence permit. Everybody can come as a ''tourist'' since it cannot be seen when he/she arrived and be employed in ''black market''. P.S. Dont give me any benefits, but dont keep them from my salary. I think NL politicians become ultra-right very dangerously approaching fascism.

By pepe | April 15, 2011 8:42 AM

Exactly! Give me back ALL of my unemployment contributions at once! I begin to look to this law with a positive attitude now. Expats are NOT cash-cows to milk at every oportunity, rob them with expensive rents, put them on overtime prohibiting them from even trying to learn the language, blame them for not learning the language, and now refuse to give us unemployment benefits that we have paid all this years working in this dark, rainy, land?!

By Alex | April 15, 2011 8:46 AM

And another measure that will never pass because we have Europe. And I doubt the opposition in parliament will approve of this.
(By the way if you have worked and get jobless, you won't get bijstand but WW).

By pepe C | April 15, 2011 9:03 AM

"The cabinet is to look into which EU-level rules need to be amended to make sure the Dutch plans can go through."

Do the cabinet seriously believe that the cornerstone, founding regulations of the EU, including the right to free movement, will be changed to pander to Dutch racism and xenophobia?

When are the Dutch government going to stop wasting time, resources and money on these ridiculous, crowd pleasing schemes that are doomed to failure from the start?

By ark | April 15, 2011 9:08 AM

Yes they have no problem when you are working even above 40 hours per week and paying a lot of tax for many years and that time its no matter if you speak dutch or not but when they have to pay you unemployment benifits or Bijstand then all rules are coming in force. This country is getting unpleasant day by day. They are already arrogating many EU rules on family rights and what EU took action on it Nothing.

I think they will enforce this law as well (I still hope not).

By Qadeer Khan | April 15, 2011 9:17 AM

Is this a nationalistic idea?

By Sirajur Rahman | April 15, 2011 9:31 AM

Other than the "learn Dutch" requirement, these are exactly the
conditions under which I immigrated from Germany in the late 1980s:
If you apply for public welfare, "bijstandsuitkering", the Dutch government
reserves the right to ask you to leave. This was actually printed on my
first residence permit!

It appears to be in compliance with the EU treaty. Now, if you have
lived here legally for some time and have paid social security
premiums, then it will be hard for the government to ask you to leave.

If on the other hand you come here, never work for any length of time
and then ask for welfare money, things are different and I agree that
they should be.

By Pruus | April 15, 2011 9:52 AM

The policies coming out of the Hague are becoming increasingly hostile to anyone who is not indigenously Dutch. Why not leave the EU if you're that brave?

By Liberal from Amsterdam | April 15, 2011 10:01 AM

This is just an unbelievable example of stupid and senseless discrimination. It makes me want to leave this country, which is getting more and more paranoid and racist everyday.

By Expat | April 15, 2011 10:16 AM

If the guv goes ahead with these discriminatory plans regarding foreign immigrants, the EU will eventually impose a large fine.
As with the washing powder cartel, the fine will be more economically attractive in the short term. So if these laws get passed, some of the social benefit contributions from migrants could end up in the pockets of the elite governing body of the EU.

This guv should be voted out before it can do any more damage to NL's reputation!!!

By The Visitor | April 15, 2011 11:38 AM

"The cabinet is to look into which EU-level rules need to be amended to make sure the Dutch plans can go through. " - So The Netherlands can just amend EU regulations so they can pass any local law they want. Looks like someone (either the author or minister Kamp) has lost their mind.

By rgjirjgop3koph | April 15, 2011 11:56 AM

This is certainly not my wish. The real problem is all the Dutch natives that claim and use every single possible benefit, leave day and subsidy they can until the money is almost gone - then blame it all on those evil foreigners! It's been this way since I came here many years ago, only then there was still some money left so it wasn't a big problem for the Dutch.

By Bill | April 15, 2011 1:17 PM

This government need to stop wasting time drawing up proposals for laws that they must know will never pass, and only serve to make them increasingly unpopular amongst the non-dutch - then again perhaps they are hoping we will finally get so annoyed that we will leave of our own accord....

By jill | April 15, 2011 1:27 PM

If you had the same attitude in Australia you would quickly be told to learn the language or go back to where you came from. If I still lived in NL I would continue to learn Dutch to eventually be fluent in it. Show some respect and integrate in society!

By Dr. W | April 15, 2011 1:35 PM

Scary scary stuff. As if working hard for three years doesnt give one the exact rights on welfare, dutch or non dutch! Bullshit of first callibre!

By Crazy Chica | April 15, 2011 3:09 PM

I'm an American and have lived here for a number of years and I speak Dutch. What I find most shocking are the comments from people who don't seem to think that speaking the primary language of the country in which they live is important. I wish the United States would do something similar to what's proposed with respect to illegal immigrants there, especially the one who refuse to learn English or obey the laws, but expect the US taxpayer to support them.

By Susan | April 15, 2011 3:45 PM

Then the tax office should also not tax the jobless benefit premiums from non dutch speaking aliens. Why should we pay for the jobless dutch speaking people? For charity?

By bimalesh | April 15, 2011 4:09 PM

From what I read, government will not pay Welfare (bijstand), "the basic social security payment for people will no other means of support". There is nothing here about not paying the unemployment benefit, if you have the right to have it.
What must be avoided is that people, regarding from which nationality, arrive here with no job, no money and no place to stay. And then knock on the government asking for help.

By kire | April 15, 2011 4:20 PM

Treaty of Rome, Freedom of movement???

Will never get passed Brussels. Cheap politics - playing to the crowd.

And as others have said, does this mean if I lose my job and they throw me out they will hand back all my tax contributions at the border?

By Terry | April 15, 2011 4:24 PM

Just my 2 cents: the "honorable" members of the Cabinet should read more carefully several European regulations (such as Regulation (EC)883/2004, Regulation (EC)987/2009, Regulation (EC)988/2009, to name a few), directives (such as Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States), and (more specifically) provisions of the Lisbon Treaty. EU Member States cannot lay down a fixed amount to be regarded as "sufficient resources", either directly or indirectly, below which the right of residence can be automatically refused. In this respect, perhaps it is necessary for Dutch Government officials to go " back to school" and study a bit more.

By Florin | April 15, 2011 4:25 PM

They are foolish if they think that they are getting with this.

By vah | April 15, 2011 4:37 PM

I suspect that this will be blocked by the EU anyway, I would not panic, most of these statements are meant to shock and cause unrest amongst the people, almost including the real Dutch themselves who also get dealt a nasty hand. Out of all the EU countries I think the Dutch heads of state and government care the least about their people than any other EU country.

By Andy | April 15, 2011 4:48 PM

I'm an legally employed non-EU citizen. I have to learn the language which I don't have any problem, I pay taxes even for unemployment but when I lose my job I have no right to stay in this country. Since I don't have any unemployment benefits because I'll be kicked out almost immediately I would like to ask the Dutch parliament to consider not taking all these taxes that people like me pay and never get them unless we wait for 5 years, pass some integration exams and claim either permanent residency or citizenship ... Some equality would be really appreciated!

By Gokce | April 15, 2011 5:12 PM

Mr Florin, surely there is no need to lay down a fixed amount to be regarded as "sufficient resources". People with sufficient resources do not qualify for 'bijstand' and that group is not targeted.

By Frans | April 15, 2011 5:25 PM

What if you live 10 years and own a house? Are they kicking you out also?

By Kk | April 15, 2011 5:31 PM

The comment from Kire was the only one I read that seemed rational

By Murray | April 15, 2011 5:44 PM

@ Susan...'I'm an American and have lived here for a number of years and I speak Dutch. What I find most shocking are the comments from people who don't seem to think that speaking the primary language of the country in which they live is important...'

Spot on, Susan!

By WoodsUK | April 15, 2011 5:53 PM

Here is a flaw in the logic of the "learn the Dutch Language issue". First off many did not move to The Netherlands for a Dutch speaking job. Also you must hold the employed and unemployed to the same standard when it comes to law. You don't speak Dutch no job in the Netherlands for you period.
Also what if I moved to the US and the rest of the world spoke Dutch and the the US built Global companies who spoke Dutch so their country could better compete with all the Dutch speaking countries? If a company is moving you to the UK you probably speak English. If a company moves you to the Netherlands you probably speak English.

By jeppers | April 15, 2011 5:59 PM

"Why would you want to learn a dying language" Dutch colleague.

"Why don't you learn German instead?" Dutch business partner.

"It's crazy that we ask you to learn Dutch" UWV representative.

Learning Dutch is like upgrading to Windows95

By Rich | April 15, 2011 6:09 PM

Susan: I'm with you on this. The lack of an "official language" here in the US has been the source of more headache and heartache than just about anything else.

And why not toss the welfare bums out? I wish we would do that here.

And yes, collecting unemployment is NOT the same as collecting welfare. Not the same at all.

By The Cat Lady | April 15, 2011 6:29 PM

couple of aspect: to require to speak the language should be normal IF you want to apply for benefits; when people have worked for several years and paid accordingly, that does give some rights-so unemployment/support should be measured according to that time-someone who worked for 20 years should have more rights then someone who worked 1 month

By ura khalsa | April 15, 2011 7:01 PM

There is no chance they will get this past EU rules. Do they think all the undesirables will leave? of course not they will just live here illegally!
I work for a foreign company, I can live anywhere and do the same work no problem.
I am lucky enough to have a very good wage, sufficient that I pay more in tax than the average gross salary.
So you could say that I generate enough funds to pay my way and to pay for someone else!
So Mr Kamp do you think i am comfortable with the potential that if i am unfortunate enough to lose my job i will be no longer welcome within a few months?
What have I been doing investing my time and money in this country? the sooner i leave the better!

By Brian | April 15, 2011 8:47 PM

I'm surprised they are considering this for EU nationals. For non-EU nationals, they don't give a dime when you are jobless. I have worked for 5 years and paid full taxes. The government was happy when I was paying the taxes. But when I applied for welfare, for a month because I was changing jobs, I was greeted with no to non-EUs. Well, I left all the taxes I paid in NL so some jobless dutch can eat them and complain about all the foreigners coming into their precious beloved country and taking their money away. It is about time we highly-skilled immigrants leave NL and go to a country that treats as humans; I did it and I'm happy!

By Murat | April 15, 2011 8:57 PM

Hi
well I done my homework view years ago yes I did my dutch course cost me 500 euro yes I worked hard on this great language to reach a working level yes I found a job in an office and here it comes could not handel the ignorance from my dutch colleages I felt after a short time rather mobbed so 6 months and I thought do I need this job in my life ?? NOB!! To be accepted in a dutch company one of the hardest thing now with this goverment again no leader in there with strenght. If the goverment wants to be that way I hope all the international companies go to the Uk!!

By Minnie | April 15, 2011 9:28 PM

Today I walked into a bakery and in my best dutch pronunciation and speaking rapidly I asked the girl for what I wanted. I turned to my critic daughter and whispered, "was that good?" and she smiled and nodded yes. The girl behind the counter, after getting the breads I asked for, turned and said "Do you want these sliced? Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

By AW | April 15, 2011 9:47 PM

"Welfare (bijstand), the basic social security payment for people will no other means of support, will only be paid to people who speak Dutch. Claimants must complete a course to qualify. The requirement to speak Dutch will affect everyone, not just EU citizens."
Does this mean Dutch people will have to take a Dutch course to claim welfare? and what if the person concerned is mute?

By Peter | April 16, 2011 9:59 AM

Like many above, I have been legally working in this country a number of years. I have contributed to empower the Dutch economy and as such I want to have the same rights that a Dutch speaker has in the case I need it. If this won't be the case, I want the Dutch Government to return my contribution or compensate me via tax returns. I suggest to get organised and send a common complaint letter to the EU office to block this project of Law. Any lawyer among us? http://europa.eu/geninfo/mailbox/index_en.htm

By Maria | April 16, 2011 10:00 AM

The proposed measures are clear against the EU right to free movement. Instead of complaining here in this forum I suggest to come together eg 50-100 people and fight the proposed law in the Dutch and EU court. It’s very simple. It will take some time but the results will be permanent. If they like to change the rules they have first to change the EU rules. But if they change the EU rules regarding free movement of people I think we have to start thinking what are the benefits for other countries to stay in the EU.
There are also some black holes here :

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:18 PM

[1] Any EU citizen who likes to stay more that 3 months in another EU country must register himself with the Immigration Office means he has to apply for a stamp for EU citizens in his passport. BUT ―as anyone who tried himself knows― they DON’T give you the stamp UNLESS you have an income that is 60-70% of the basic dutch income (I don’t remember exactly the % now but I can find it if you like). So if you as EU citizen apply for a “student stamp” you get it very easy. If you apply for a “worker stamp” you don’t get it. So simple, so crazy, so unethical and so against the EU laws. (...)

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:19 PM

(...) What is the difference between a “student stamp” and a “worker stamp”? With a “student stamp” you simple cannot apply for bijstand uitkering. You can apply for unemployment money if you lose your job but not for bijstand uitkering. So for bijstand you have to be (a) registered in the Immigration Office plus (b) registered in the municipality. This is the rule today. So no difference from today.

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:20 PM

[2] So the real difference that they would like to bring is when they say that to have the right to be here you need to proof that you have job (in the first 3 months of your stay) or sufficient income (after the 3 months period). But I believe that is totally against EU regulation so it’s gonna be ―earlier or later― failed. E.g. in the court. Otherwise if you are unregistered you cannot claim for anything, you “build” no rights and they don’t know that you are leaving here. (...)

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:20 PM

(...) I mean that there is a contradiction here: without proper income you cannot registered with the Immigartion Office but the same time if you don’t registered they don’t know that you leave here. And better don’t talk about the “rules” to rent a free sector house (your income must be 3-4 times the rental + vast contract etc) so I suppose they are talking for renting a room. Otherwise you are millionaire and came here for unlimited vacations.

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:21 PM

[3] The difference regarding bijstand is that they would like to introduce a basic knowledge of dutch to be able to apply. In any case also today you must leave at least 1 year worked in Netherlands before apply for bijstand (Volkrskrant Friday 15 April “Arbeidsmigrant krijgt pas later …”). I suppose that someone who likes to stay here he has somehow and at some level to learn the language. (...)

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:22 PM

(...) For non-EU citizens the law says they have to complete the “inburgering” in a 5 (?) years period or so. Every EU citizen can apply to the municipalities for free lessons. The level of “inburgering” is not so high. Better apply for the “inburgering,” learn some basic dutch and solve the problem with the requirements of the uitkering. Is not so big deal and I guarantee you that also with the inburgering diploma you cannot find a better job from the one you have now :) In any case they cannot ask from EU citizens to speak better dutch than the non-EU citizens. It’s so simple.

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:22 PM

I have to confirm that Netherlands is really funny country and you can really enjoy WHEN you stop taking them so seriously. At least no more than yours mother country residents and authorities. Just SIMPLE.
Some comments are out of the target. They don’t have problem if you leave here unless you ask money. Otherwise you can leave here paying taxes, vat (this is also tax please don’t forget) etc. Just don’t ask money and you don’t have any problem.
Otherwise I agree with Pruus and Florin

By nikos | April 16, 2011 1:23 PM

it sounds like the same thing here in canada and more so in the usa.
its those people that abuse the sistem and spoil it for everyone.
those free loaders shoud be sen where ever they came from.
dutch people in this country are highly regarded for their work atthics and loyalty.
my fatherland has become a mecca for UE trash.

By john schenk | April 16, 2011 1:31 PM

Other governments will also reciprocate with the same to Dutch citizens residing in other countries if ever this crazy law gets passed by EU..

There are so many of them who cannot speak English, especially the younger ones found in AH & Blooker...claiming social money all the time

By AD | April 16, 2011 2:09 PM

The social affairs minister’s position toward Eastern and Central Europe countries is extremely unfair. It appears that Romanian and Bulgarian nationals especially are treated worse that non-EU citizens. Furthermore, as of the 1st of July, the minister wants to deny them their lawful right to work, by giving no more work permits except for “extraordinary circumstances”. So if they have no work permit, they cannot work, therefore they cannot stay. Basically, they are denied their EU given right to move and work. If these measures pass, it can only be concluded that some EU countries are more of a member than others.

By Laura | April 17, 2011 8:11 AM

Do you know why I didn't learn Dutch all this time? Because I was working all the time!!!!

AND if they care so much about their language why don't they spend more time to give their young ones a better education at school? Honestly it comes to my attention how bad is the Dutch spoken by students and not to mention the spelling... it's a SHAME! If you have Dutch teenager relatives you will know what I am talking about.

I have nothing against the language, honestly I probably like it more than most citizens.

By WorkerExpat | April 18, 2011 11:00 AM

Did I jump into a time machine and got back to Germany in 1939?
Now instead of Jews we have Eastern Europeans and Muslims vs Dutch? What's next? Light skin Dutch vs not so light skin Dutch despite they all speak Dutch? Is everybody going insane or it's just short memory about what happened with all the hate 70 years ago?

By Michael | April 18, 2011 5:46 PM

Funny... Most the people who complain here have absolutely no understanding of the Dutch legal and employment system. In this case I consider this to be positive, as all these people obviously have never taken advantage of the Bijstand. I would however urge you to look into it before you start a rant.

By Rob | April 20, 2011 1:15 PM

This is just an unbelievable example of stupid and senseless discrimination. It makes me want to leave this country, which is getting more and more paranoid and racist everyday.
By Expat | April 15, 2011 10:16 AM

We hope you all do and leave!!!

By Teddy: | April 20, 2011 9:27 PM