of course its not nice to see posters in a foreign language but the way of the minister says its 100% racist i would like to mention to him that foreigners they are here because they have problems in their country so its very low level saying this kind of words.

By tony | February 18, 2010 8:45 AM

Wow.. how... friendly?

By LJK | February 18, 2010 8:52 AM

I thought it was funny when PVV called those partijs using different languages hypocrites. PVV is right on about that.

By sandrav | February 18, 2010 9:00 AM

It is not always language that unites a country. Look at Switzerland. I always feel that too much flag waving and laws imposing language are a sign of national instability which looks else where for a scapegoat. The Netherlands has a strong culture and should embrace diversity as it always has in the past. It is a trading nation and should keep its flexible mentally.

By charlotte Lyon | February 18, 2010 9:07 AM

Are there separate words for 'integrate' and 'assimilate' in the Dutch language? Neither this guy or his predecessor seem to be able to tell the difference.

By osita | February 18, 2010 9:21 AM

No one will ever be "Dutch enough" for Blowhard van der Spam.

By J. | February 18, 2010 9:34 AM

According to the NL statistical office, at the last count there were 3.3 million residents in NL who were “allochtoon”. Of this amount, about
1.5million seem to be EU citizens and I guess many of them don’t speak Dutch as a first language. That leaves 1.8 million who are either naturalized
Dutch citizens, those accepted through the assylum process or have at least 1 parent born outside of NL.

In total this group is 20% of the Netherland’s population. We are about to see local elections in NL, where anybody legally registered as living
here is allowed to vote. How typical of a PvdA politician to kowtow to his CDA/CU masters and bring out the race/integration issue.

Mr van der Laan, local elections are for all residents of your rapidly deteriorating country, please stop playing the allochtoon/integration card on this one
and let us choose our local representatives how we see fit. I wonder if he has objections to political party literature being produced in english….

By john | February 18, 2010 10:13 AM

Some VVD guy just posted a political message on the Expatica forum -- in English! Report him!!

By CW | February 18, 2010 10:17 AM

There should be no discussion on this. You move to a country, learn the language BEFORE you move. I did. I learned Spanish, French and German in school in the USA. Before moving here I took several courses to learn the Dutch language. I have since learned Portuguese and am now working on Cantonese. Old dogs CAN be taught new tricks if they are willing.

By Paul Martin | February 18, 2010 11:30 AM

Paul, that post just reads like you are blowing your own trumpet. Some people have the knack to pick up languages with ease, bravo you - others don't have that skill, yet perhaps a wealth of others.

By D | February 18, 2010 12:23 PM

Paul Martin, I totally agree with you.

By sandrav | February 18, 2010 12:28 PM

Paul Martin,

I'm afraid the real world isn't that simple. We have free movement of people (inter alia) enshrined with the EU's charter so anybody from 25 soveriegn territories is free to live and work in NL without a language requirement.

Also, many people come from countries with little/no access to foriegn language instruction - should they (mainly assylum seekers or family members of migrant workers) be barred entry until ze nederlands kunnen spreken?

By john | February 18, 2010 12:41 PM

While I agree that the election campaign in the Netherlands should be entirely in Dutch, I believe this should be fixed by a rule or a law with the corresponding consequences if violated. If it just came from the mouth of some minister, it is just yeat another low quality populist performance from a person that does nothing but bullcrap.

By George | February 18, 2010 1:01 PM

Fine. I'll tell my husband now that I have to go back to Canada and take non-existant Dutch courses and see him again in 20 years instead of trying to immerse myself in the country in which it is spoken. I'll be back just in time to retire. Hope he'll wait for me...
And while we're at it, all the expats recruited here for jobs because they can't find a Dutch person to fill them will have to leave too.
And then we can eliminate all school programs that help kids of differing abilities learn because everybody has the same ability to learn everything. Just give em all a good beating because they're lazy sods.

Oh, I'm "discussing". And there should be no discussion. So sorry...

By CW | February 18, 2010 2:08 PM

I totally agree with Paul. If I went to Russia and didn't bother learning any Russian do you think I could survive there on just English?

CW- There are many ways to learn Dutch (or any language for that matter) without having to enroll in a formal course.

When my parents moved to the USA in the 60's they had to know English. If a person doesn't want to learn a language in a country they move to aren't they just squatting? If a person doesn't want to adapt to a new culture why should they stay? Seems like a miserable existence.

Of course someone will bring up asylum seekers. I know of a few and they did their best to adopt to American culture for the sake of their children having an easier life. Isn't that the point of escaping? A better life?

By CLulu | February 18, 2010 2:42 PM

Clulu,
I understand where you're coming from but a few retorts to you.

1 - NL has a tradition of being a base, however temporary, for migrant workers and very humanely allows them to bring spouses into the country. This first generation (especially the spouses from third world countries) don't speak dutch when they arrive but can learn here. In the meantime, they're eligible to vote in the local election - do we wish to take away this right?

2 - the USA will soon have 50% of its inhabitants for whom english will not be their first language.

Migration brings economic benefits, for sure, but it also changes the face of a country. We need to accept all aspects of globalisation and asylum policy and not regress into the nationalistic claptrap being spouted by politicians here in NL.

By John | February 18, 2010 3:18 PM

As foreigners have no say in our politics, as they are not citizens of the Netherlands, it all makes sense that these political campaign posters should be kept in the native tongue, Dutch. This multi-langual poster idea only keeps to seperate and is counter active to the whole feeling of union, which a language is supposed to create. Imagine if Obama posters were in arabic.

By Rolf van Bos | February 18, 2010 3:26 PM

I wish the Dutch had some patience with new immigrants to their country regardless of their country of origin. I moved here from the UK in August 2009 and tried desperately to learn Dutch before coming here but I need to learn in a classroom environment (everyone has different ways of learning) so teaching myself didn't work.
I started Dutch lessons in September & although I am usually good at picking languages up(I always learn some words of each country I visit so I can attempt basic phrases) and speak French as well as English, find dutch the hardest language I have ever tried to learn.

Ref CLulu, most of the immigrants I know who don't bother learning to speak Dutch come from the US.
Point also to note it costs me €365 for 24 Dutch lessons - hardly cheap when you are starting a new life & trying to save up to afford your housing prices!!!!!
I love the Netherlands and am trying my best to learn the language, culture and integrate - just wish the locals showed a bit more tolerance with us buitenlanders.

By Carol Turnham | February 18, 2010 3:32 PM

Are the ballots all in Dutch or are they printed in other languages? Just curious. Thanks.

By Laura | February 18, 2010 3:58 PM

Who said anything about not wanting to learn a language? Who would be stupid enough to move to a foreign country with no intention on trying? That's not what I'm talking about.

He says one should be FLUENT before moving there. Regardless of reason for moving, access to lessons and ability to learn languages. After 5 years of immersion and lessons (and working here and paying taxes) I'm far from fluent, but I try. Apparently now trying's not even enough for some people?

By CW | February 18, 2010 3:58 PM

Paul Martin and Sandra, you are both right-on. Learn Dutch! Learn to read Dutch newspapers so that you get the whole story not just summaries of the news from an English news website. stop settling for limited information.

By Ali | February 18, 2010 4:00 PM

The discussion so far seems to be between whether it is useful or not to learn Dutch, or perhaps whether it is rude to move somewhere and not fit it. Both of these are true. To me, however, the question in this article is whether political parties will be forced to print their posters in a designated language (i.e. Dutch and not Frisian or German or English or whatever - and I guess not "slang" Dutch either?).

EU nationals may reside anywhere in the EU they wish as their right. Asylum seekers have a right to remain when they are under threat of persecution. Also the Netherlands says that is desperately wants foreigners to move to the Netherlands and contribute their skills. No country has to admit anyone else. So these people are either here because they have a right to be or because the NL wants them to be here. They may have a hard time fitting in if they don't learn the local language and they are well advised to learn it.

But should political parties be banned from appealing to them (and other newcomers) in other languages? Some of these new residents are moving every few years and it is a waste of human energy to force them to learn new languages eveywhere. If no political party wanted to appeal to those who did not speak Dutch, then OK. If some party wants to appeal to its lawful constituency in another language, also OK. Freedom of speach! Say what you want, and say it how you want! If you cannot muster the votes and waste your election money on posters hardly anyone can read, then you make a tactical error and lose your elections.

By Matt | February 18, 2010 4:01 PM

I don't agree with Paul at all. I work for an international company, have an English partner. Yes it would be nice to be fluent at Dutch but the reality is the amount of time I would speak it is minimal. In the meantime I have been able to live my life and perform in my job for over three years. Why should I have taken Dutch lessons before I came here? The fact is that the Dutch speak excellent English. I wish languages were taught to the same degree in British schools but that is another issue.

No discussion about this? Let’s start a dictatorship and be done with differing points of view.

By Jonathan | February 18, 2010 4:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the cda use an English slogan and theme song last election?

By kp | February 18, 2010 4:26 PM

If the various parties want to provide voter friendly campaign posters, why not let them? It's a free country after all. If they want to target the legally voting foreigners, then that's their choice. Or would we prefer to eradicate democracy in favour of a pure society?

By H | February 18, 2010 4:28 PM

Completely agree with Paul, Sandrav, CLulu and co.. if you choose to come and be a GUEST in someone else's country, the least you can do is make an effort to learn the language, and abide by local customs and laws - it is common decency. If you don't like it, you can always take advantage of a great European freedom - the right to leave.

By Bigoceans | February 18, 2010 4:29 PM

Ugh! My language is an ugly language anyways. No one is really "Dutch" anymore, we are multi-diversified. Amsterdam is a mixing/melting pot of all backgrounds. Let's just switch to English on everything since that is the language of international business anyways.

By Daan | February 18, 2010 4:44 PM

For those who have learned Dutch how are you treated? I find no matter how long you are here once a native hears you speak you are not treated the same.
If there really is a concern make training free for all, make imigrants repeat the courses until they pass it, provide more active help. Develope some processes to make it happen don't get mad and pull the rug out from under these people. Put positve plans in place to get the result you want which will benefit both sides.
Also Companies down play the need to know dutch when bringing over expats and then once you are here it's a different story.

By babel | February 18, 2010 4:56 PM

If a person moves to a place temporarily with the thought of returning home or moving again in a few years, they have no business changing that country's laws or representatives. People choose to stay within the community of their mother tongue out of a basic disdain for the place that accepted them. If they want to re-invent themselves and begin a new life, language and customs are the way to do it. If they do not, then natives should take the hint while trying to preserve their own heritage which deserves at least as much honor as that of others.

By Janka | February 18, 2010 6:30 PM

So all permanent residents have the right to vote? That is a good feature in the Netherlands and certainly not the case in all other countries. However, if you cannot even read a poster in Dutch, how can you perceive what is at issue in the Dutch politics and make a sensible vote?

By Frans | February 18, 2010 7:50 PM

John said: "- the USA will soon have 50% of its inhabitants for whom english will not be their first language."

That's not even close to being correct. A statistic pulled directly from your posterior.

By Yo Mamma | February 18, 2010 8:02 PM

As someone who is taking the Inburgering course right after moving here voluntarily to learn the language I say the Dutch do a great job when it comes to integration. I choose to live here and thus I find it natural that I must learn the laws and the language and abide by them. Even the ones I think are silly.

My Dutch is not strong enough for me to understand everything on the posters yet but I am still convinced they should be in Dutch. I think anyone living in a country long enough to have voting rights should be ashamed of not having learnt the basics of the language.

By Laila | February 18, 2010 8:34 PM

I am an English speaking foreigner living in the Netherlands. Because of my busy working schedule, my Dutch has not been improved very much. But I am willing to share my valuble skills and experiences with any one/any party if I am approached in English. So we should promote to use any language which helps us understand and communicate.

By DL | February 18, 2010 9:00 PM

a typical Dutch way of canvasing for my vote.Therefore......

By Mark | February 18, 2010 10:29 PM

I have to add to the debate, that as a British person, i support Carol Turnham's statement that it is massively difficult to learn *any* foreign language in the UK before one is able to emigrate. I myself have attempted to learn my girlfriend's native language, and there are no options short of hiring another native speaker (at a premium!) for private lessons, which many people could not afford. Our state schools only teach foreign languages from 11 to 14 years old, and French is almost always the only language taught. For the normal working person, the only affordable means to gain any language proficiency is to emigrate and hope that you cope!

By Buggy Boy | February 19, 2010 2:18 AM

I never understood why some people refuse to learn the language of the country they move to.

If you learn it before you go there or while you are living there doesn't matter; learn it and you will integrate better. Learning a language is not just about integrating better with the people, but also the government.

Also it shows respect to their linguistic heritage. It is also rude to expect people to cater for your shortcomings in their language.

I never managed to learn Dutch fluently and I am honestly ashamed of that. I am thinking about doing it one day, but as I do not live there anymore it is not that urgent. Still I remember times I wished I did speak, read and write Dutch fluently; because not everyone speaks English there.

By xen | February 19, 2010 5:28 AM

Should local election posters be in Dutch only?

IMHO
If the Netherlands has declared itself as officially multi-lingual, (as Canada has done), then it needs to have its election posters printed in all the languages it officially recognizes. In Canada, English and French are the two officially recognized languages and
therefore election posters, government documents, street signs etc. are issued in both official languages.

If the Netherlands is a uni-lingual country, it has no obligation to print its election posters in any other language.
It may decide to do so to accomodate those that don't speak Dutch, however, this would be counter-productive if the Netherlands has an official government campaign to educate its immigrants to learn the official language of the Netherlands, which is Dutch to my knowledge.

BTW, the poll is very misleading or poorly worded.

The question is: Should local election posters be in Dutch only?

There should only be three options to choose from: YES, NO, Can't decide

About option 1: "What's all the fuss about? " is a silly question. We know what the fuss is about. It's about accomodating those who don't read/speak Dutch.

About option 2: "Yes, you should speak Dutch to be able vote" is like comparing apples and oranges. A person's ability to vote has nothing to do with the language in which the posters are printed. Perhaps somebody can answer this one: Does the ability to speak Dutch equal the criteria which give a person the right to vote in Dutch elections?

About option 3: "No, not everyone who can vote speaks Dutch" If that's the reason then why stop at Turkish, Chinese and Arabic? Any others would be treated as second class citizens.

By KenM | February 19, 2010 5:29 AM

The goal of different parties is get more votes at the election, so they want to send their message to every eligible voter. This can happen in the form of posters or talking to people, or ritual dance, or anything else.

This has got nothing to do with whether people living here should learn Dutch or not.

By Robert | February 19, 2010 9:13 AM

So my two cents.
1. I have lived here for 2 Years. I am pretty prefficient at speaking dutch.
2. In the two years living here I have paid taxes.
3. By paying taxes and assisting in suring up the infrastructure and services I now have a right to vote.
4. I will be trying my damndest to read all the issues on the ballot.

But when all else fails I wont be voting for the christian Unie or Geert Wilders.

To be quite frank when 20% of your voting population is not dutch. As a party I would try not to upset them.

Oh an Paul good for you for learning all your languages. I wish as much time as you do to learn unfortunatly I am actually working and I try my best at the 4 languages I have picked up over the years.

By Daniel S. | February 19, 2010 9:23 AM

I would like the posters in Scots,AUB.

By Jim Tait | February 19, 2010 10:58 AM

Do the Dutch learn foreign languages when they travel to other countries. I mean i know most of them can have a good go at English but the last time i was in Bonaire and Curacao i didnt meet any Dutch people who could speak Papiamentu. But im sure the Dutch would say that dont count. But it does. Stop being such hypocrits.

J is right soon nobody will be Dutch enough. Im from Ireland and when my son was born here and they refused to give him a Dutch passport because neither of his parents are Dutch. Hes an official Amsterdammer but failed the Dutch test. Lucky bastard.

Can't Dutch This.

By langer | February 19, 2010 3:01 PM

Kind of ironic to see this being discussed on an english language site. Obvioulsly, we have an interest in Dutch politics, but we aren't exactly integrated (or whatever you call it).

I don't think I can really undertand what's going on here without knowing Dutch. So, I don't mind having to learn the language to vote.

By Andrew | February 19, 2010 4:51 PM

A voter should know the official language of the country they are voting in, so the official language should be all that is required in this case.
If there are concerns with people not learning the language that should be addressed on its own, with sponsored training and laws. With so few people speaking dutch in the world I would think there would be more effort to teach it to anyone willing to sign up to a sponsored course.

By I812 | February 19, 2010 6:44 PM

I want to go live in the Netherlands and I have to know Dutch to even apply for a 6 month visa (MVV). It doesn't make any sense that people could vote without knowing the language. How would they understand what the politicians are saying on television, then?

By the way, I have the Naar Nederland DVD which was a gift from my fiancé, and I bought myself an extensive book on Dutch... I've spent a total of 4 months in NL and I've tried to integrate even while I was there just on holiday... Why couldn't someone who was living there do the same?

I voted that people should know Dutch well enough to be able to vote, it only makes sense.

By Gaby | February 20, 2010 12:36 AM

For those who don't speak Dutch fluently, take heart.

I was born in the province of Friesland and my 'memmetael' (mother tongue)is Frisian. When I went to elementary school, I was forced to learn Dutch (while my Frisian language was being ignored), so Dutch is my second language. I never become fluent at it, not even while serving in the army.

BTW-I found out a very disturbing piece of information. Although I was born in Friesland and considered myself through and through a Frisian, it turns out that I and my siblings are all "allochtonen" because my father came from a foreign country as a child after WWI. My mother was Dutch, but that does not seem to have mattered.

By KenM | February 20, 2010 5:33 AM

It is good you know are to speak dutch hence you are in netherland, but the problem while most foreigner hardly speak dutch it because they have to pay to learn the language. Like in italy language school is free of charge so many foreigner there can speak italiano because they learn it free of charge. I think that is the best way to integrate foreign into the society as well as asylum seek should be given the oppurtunity to learn dutch

By dallinton | November 24, 2010 8:03 PM