Integration is important if you move to NL.
The best way to integrate is thru education, not thru prohibition.
Does anyone disagree? If so, why?

By Darren | May 20, 2010 9:04 AM

Why would someone want to integrate into a culture where 31% of the people hate you, your family members and your cultural heritage?

The racism and fear mongering by these extremist fake conservatives and neo-fascists will ensure that integration continues at sub-par levels.

It's like a self-fulfilling cycle of hate - which self-styled authoritarians exploit to eliminate human rights for native and immigrant Dutch public alike.

By Prince Burnhard | May 20, 2010 9:38 AM

Would anyone want to be put in obligatory integration classes if the teachers in the inburgeringscursus itself hold a discriminatory attitude and the general public is not the friendliest towards immigrants?

It is so primitive to go back to the old days when racism was stirred up by extremists in the government. Talk about terrorism from within.

By ky | May 20, 2010 2:23 PM

I might add, ky, that they tend to end the contracts of the good teachers -- who cared about and respected their students as human beings -- as well. The two best ones I know lost their jobs at the end of their term...

By CW | May 20, 2010 3:06 PM

ky,

Where on earth do you get the idea that the teachers hold a discriminatory attitude towards immigrants? Is it something that has happened to you personally? I can only speak from my experience, but my docent is an immigrant herself, and all of the teachers in my school are open and there's not a hint of any racist attitudes anywhere at all within the school.

I completely disagree with forced integration unless one is aiming for citizenship/permanent residency. By the time I finish my compulsory inburgering courses I still won't even be eligible to apply for at least another year. At least I don't have to pay for the course. If I did, I wouldn't stay. Simple as that.

By MN | May 20, 2010 3:16 PM

The only way to change the attitudes of the general Dutch population would be to actually make an effort to integrate. How can anyone move to a new country and expect to be accepted with open arms while refusing to learn the language or embrace the native culture? Make an effort and it will be noticed.

By Jess | May 20, 2010 3:54 PM

sacrifice your today, for your better tomorrow. just do the damn integration and learn the language and thngs require. make the Dutch people happy, matter is solve.... damn things love to talk alot, not willing to do it. just do it....

By nabo | May 20, 2010 9:05 PM

integration is a rather vague word
1. most native dutch refuse to speak their own language with non-native dutch, and constantly switch to utterly horrible broken english - solving this issue would already help a big deal
2. so-called integration courses teach non-western foreigners with university education and salaries that average native dutch can dream of, how to fill in welfare forms - this ain't making much sense either
3. and the most hillarious thing is the typical question from the native dutch whether i can read dutch language, having in mind that according to CBS statistics 10% of dutch are illiterate (7% native and only 3% non-native) whereas i can read at least 6 languages that do not use latin alphabet, and at least 5 that do
so basically i would say native dutch should also work on their provincial views and get more awareness of the outside world

By MV | May 20, 2010 9:41 PM

MN, according to a few immigrant friends actually took part in the inburgeringscursus in various locales in NL, the teachers assume that their students are all going to take up blue-collar jobs. Aside from that these people supposedly trying to help newcomers into NL integrate also passed condescending & stereotypical comments targeted at particular ethnicities.

By ky | May 20, 2010 10:03 PM

MV and KY are absolutely right. One of the questions asked at intake for inburgeringcursus was ( and I still have to copy of questionnaire) - if I could ride the bike :) Yes, I can, but it's not relevant and I prefer to walk or drive.. Taking into account that I am already paying in tax more than average Dutch salary, I refuse to waste my time on forced integration ( especially since the requirement was not in place when I got my RP ). I know how to find a job, I know how to open a bank account, sort out mortgage related issues, and frankly, I was much happier person when I couldn't understand natives. And for 'if you don't like it get out' people - that's exactly what I am doing..taking my business elsewhere..

By Kiki | May 21, 2010 8:18 AM

Do not spend money on forced integration, it does not work. On contrary, it only cause hatred and irratation. Cut the welfare costs on new immigrants, if they can find a job to survive in Holland, they will leave the country by themselves.

By DL | May 21, 2010 9:27 AM

VVD changed it´s tune on this and wants immigrants to go to work where they can not only support themselves, integrate by working but, also learn the language and pay for it themselves on their own time. Not by force. People integrate naturally if they are working and earning a living for themselves. Even the VVD has admitted that the inburgering law has become too bureaucratic and useless. I think it is shameful for us in this country to refuse to see how stupid we are when professionals from Western countries and also from non Western countries who have lived here for years and already speak the Dutch language very well, have no reason whatsoever to take the inburgerings test and yet, are having to quit a job in order to start the inburgerings course because the Gemeente said they are obligated to and it is not only Muslims or non Westerners. It is our own allies, USA, Canada and other Westerners that are not part of EU. EU citizens that do not speak the language are not obligated to do inburgering nor take the test and can live here freely without being harrassed. This makes us look like one big hypocritical ignorant country that should not have an international human rights court in this land nor be a part of Nato along side USA and Canada when we are saying they are third country niet westerse by our laws here. At the same time, CDA and others like them are kissing arse to their allies faces and behind the back you know the rest. Typical for us and we haven´t learned our lessons from WW2.

By SandraV | May 21, 2010 11:14 AM

Really DL? And where would my Dutch husband go?

MN: I'm glad you were lucky to have decent docents. I had both good and bad...and the bad treated us as if we were five years old. They are out there...

By CW | May 21, 2010 11:41 AM

Last I looked, forced immigration is something more than just learning the language. It's about being sensitive to, and respecting the host country's culture, it's laws, customs and people. Its as simple as that. Try it!

By Buzzer | May 21, 2010 4:06 PM

2 sides to every story.
If people move to another country,they must be able to adapt to the culture and customs.Not to want "rights" to their customs,etc. from their homeland in a foreign country.
On the other side,of course the local public will be outraged when much crime and harassment mostly involves immigrants.
It makes it sad that the good people are overshadowed by others from their own countries.They just try to make a good life for themselves,their families and others.

By CVB | May 21, 2010 7:42 PM

I think this mainly applies to non Europeans. I haven't seen it so mutch. But then I'm mixed UK/Irish descent (white european) so perhaps it's just because I don't stand out so much.
On the subject of inburgering, in my evening classess I found that all the Turks,Morocans etc. would sit in their own little groups, talking among themselves and speaking to their freinds on their mobiles. So it was no surprise that none of them got a certificate at the end of the year. You can't blame the teachers if you haven't done the work.

By Donaugh | May 21, 2010 8:39 PM

I actually hold a UK Passport and have no need to follow this "in-buggery" cursus. :-)

However, due to the fact that I was born in a non western country, these people phone me up and said that it was compulsory for me to complete the course!! I demanded to speak to a Manager who apologized and explained that EU expats do not have to follow it but it is preferable if they did so. I agreed to do so but explained that my priority is my job and family, not talking to Dutch people....

I could not believe the arrogance and ignorance of some Dutch people but I am not going to generalize like most of them do. A fraction of them have this incredible patronizing attitude, just like Wilders. and they always like telling people how to do things but hate being told what to do. Especailly by non Dutch Natives. I have lived in 3 different EU countries as an Expat, UK, France and NL and nowhere more than the NL have I seen such institutionalized racism and bigotry coming from these so called leaders..and when you think this is about no more than 1 Million in total across (Turks, Morrocans....) Muslim population, it is quite amazing...

Disgraceful.

By Saladin | May 24, 2010 12:02 PM

Forced integration - don't make me laugh. From my experience the Dutch don't want us to integrate and then blame us for not integrating. Jess, I have learnt the language, customs etc. I know more about the customs and Royal family than my Dutch husband does! Round here, as soon as they realise you are foreign they treat you like a leper. I can give you numerous examples, and I am white, Christian and English, I dread to think what it is like for Muslims.

The racism both in the political parties and on the streets is frightening, it really is.

By Sue | May 28, 2010 12:38 PM